Thank you for your comment. Many charge controllers do not have charging profile for Lithium compared to FLA or AGM. Others I know would have a 24+ volt inverter fail and have to wait weeks to get a new one. Please list items like this: 2 led bulbs 7 watts for 4 hours/ day 54 volts, as in your example, will NOT be enough voltage to charge a 48 volt battery bank. Fridges use approximately 1000 watt hours per day or 1 kWh per day so when you say your fridge uses 1500 watts that would be like running a hair dryer or iron for ironing your clothing. If you run the charge from the controller through one end of each bank, doesn’t that give you uneven charging of the batteries further away (even assuming you charge the two banks separately)? I have tried. My experience with DC-DC converters has not been great as they essentially change the DC to AC then change the voltage and then convert back to DC. Thanks for your help. Good for you trying something out like this. Then add a dump controller like a Tristar TS60 or a Xantrex/Schneider C60 connected to a suitable dump load. You will definitely need a low frequency inverter with a high surge capacity like a Magnum Energy or an Outback Power inverter. Thanks for your comment. 3 phase is neat and not that uncommon like it was 20 years ago. a Arrow 10×12 building is about $400 at a Lowes or Home depot. 24 12V batteries in serie 24V, 200Ah ea. If you need a drawing or I didn’t answer your question please let me know. During charging, the battery voltage will rise into the high 12 volt range, then it will move into the 13 volt range, then 14, and so on. Either add more batteries or decrease your solar output and you will be good to go. The maximium DC input to the inverter is 68 volts and the inverter’s continuous output is 4400 VA. Not quite sure how to do that or whether I should do a single bank of 48 volts/370 amps? You could not easily source a 350 amp breaker as a disconnect and you would have to use battery cable that is larger than 0000 or 4/0. Then you would use an MPPT (maximum power point tracking) charge controller that you can program if, when and how often the batteries are equalized. 2100 watts of solar array, two systems (1400 and 700). I am also using TRACER MPPT controllers I bought in bulk on Alibaba.com for 1/3 the price of Magnum or outback and in 7 years, not one loss but IF I DID loose a controller, its one 40 amp reduction at $140, not 80 or 100 amp charging loss at $600 a pop. Third, voltage reduction to use 12 volt lighting is not expensive. Maybe you could make a timed circuit that would do this automatically from you. A good rule is to only have enough solar modules to charge at 15% of the battery bank’s capacity. Seems NONE think structure first, Amps second! Just pair the solar panels in groups of two. However I would I’d recommend always using both at the same time as you will get more performance and the batteries will last longer. You can check your battery’s state of charge by reading voltage (not super accurate but OK) or the specific gravity of the batteries (very accurate). And my battery Bank is run in parallel with the inverter connected to the last battery still at 12 volts. Fine stranded has less air space between strands (allowing more current) than large stranded plus large stranded is almost impossible to route (bend) large stranded wire like 1/0, 2/0, 3/0 or 4/0. Correct me if I’m wrong. Sorry I’ve been tardy in reply but we’ve been away for a couple of weeks. Our electricity is more on loadshedding and is becoming very expensive. It makes no sense to retrofit systems that are already working fine. I have a separate battery bank that is 12 volts connected to 400 watts of solar to operate my ELSID circulating pumps directly from 12 VDC and m y Polaris via a Morningstar Sure Sine 300 watt sine wave inverter. How many days do you want to be able to operate without the use of a backup generator? Check these guys out…. Your battery and solar module configuration will work great. Wow. Homesteaders building renewable energy systems should avoid 12 volt battery banks with the following exceptions: 1. When you mix 7AH batteries and 12AH batteries, the 12AH batteries will act as if they were 7 AH batteries. 3 inverters ABB PVI-4,2-TL-OUTD There are multiple output chargers and straight 48 volt units throughout a wide-range of amperage outputs. This company says that would be too much for this system. Double the inverters as in our system and the maximum current will be 250 amps which can easily be handled by 4/0 cable going to the DC breaker panel with a 250 or 300 amp Class T fuse, followed by two sets of 2/0 cable (one set per inverter) and 175 amp DC circuit breakers for each inverter. I’m also going to have a diesel generator for back up. Eventually I will ad links to videos if you can offer that option on your blogs. One failure and you are shut down. A better scenario would be to wire your 8 batteries into two groups of 4 and parallel the strings to make a 24 volt system. In each group of two panels connect the (-) negative of one panel to the (+) positive of the other. Does it have an annual usage rating? Now I think I know better. If they have a shingled roof, skip ALL the solar panel mounting hardware and use 26 gauge Delta style commercial grade metal roofing panels laterally on the rood then with simple clips you can screw to the raised ribs of the roof panel. When the battery has reached its bulk voltage level the charge current will slowly decrease as batteries become more charged. In the process of developing some experience, I bought a cheap 30 amp controller and installed it to my two, in series, modules that I constructed with cells from Amazon. Thanks for the Reply, Lots of homework in there. You could have a disconnect switch between them if you HAD to shut one bank down due to a defective battery. It seems obvious. 1 0 obj << /Type /Page /Parent 331 0 R /Resources << /ColorSpace << /CS2 342 0 R /CS3 343 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS2 366 0 R /GS3 367 0 R >> /Font << /TT3 339 0 R /TT4 336 0 R /TT5 337 0 R >> /ProcSet [ /PDF /Text ] >> /Contents 2 0 R /MediaBox [ 0 0 612 792 ] /CropBox [ 0 0 612 792 ] /Rotate 0 /StructParents 1 >> endobj 2 0 obj << /Filter /FlateDecode /Length 3 0 R >> stream Deciding whether to design and build  a 12, 24 or 48 volt battery bank is one of the bigger (and first) decisions you will make when deciding to live off the grid. No. I am hoping Elon hurries up so I can have something better…. 1 laptop 80 watts for 6 hours / day We now have 3 strings of 8 x Trojan L16s. { 61 comments… read them below or add one }, Greetings, One step at a time and eventually you will have everything working perfectly. I still have all this stuff and decided to educate MYSELF and power up the shop with solar and the 9 enersys batteries left I haven’t sold. This is a weekend warrior man cave and is not going to be a heavily used or a critical use system. Large trucks, some boats, wheelchairs, and other equipment use 24-volt batteries. After burning up a few $2500 inverters in under 1 year I swapped to Mean Well and have no losses anymore. As they grow up my wife and I will definitely go the Tiny House route. [I still have two Fischer Panda generators (as described) that were $18,000 each and have only two hours on each (from the sea trials). How many 36 cell solar panels do I need, what batteries and how many batteries, and what inverter and any and all other things I might need. It also has the effect of making the batteries last longer due to Peukart’s law. Congrats on being off grid. Cost, about $20 to $50 each. Use a DC 250 amp circuit breaker for your disconnect and a 300 amp class T fuse with holder for your catastrophe fuse. Thank you for the information on your site. My main problem is even a mini refrigerator trips my inverter every time and it will even start to beat if I turn on a squirrel cage fan in my home while running the small television. Reliability and efficiency and have been the main issues. Even though I might generate 17.4 volts and 23 amps from 4 panels and run it through the charger controller, how do I configure the wiring to equalize the charge per battery so the lead battery doesn’t get all the charge and the tail end battery gets little? I am from South Africa and want to start my own of the grid system. When you go shopping for those products you will soon realize they don’t exist or are very rare. Okay I have a ”Tiny” house 12 by 20 ft. What items will you be operating on the battery bank? I had someone else develop the system for me, for a 38 foot retro designed pleasure cruiser that incorporated and utilized all of what you’ve done but for marine propulsion. If I were to operate each inverter (with separate cables for each) at 12 volts I would need a fuse for each inverter at the battery bank rated at 500 amps (6000 watts divided by 12 volts equals 500 amps). There is really nothing wrong with it but without the certification electricians, electrical inspectors and insurance companies won’t accept it. I have two Outback VFX3648 inverters operating 120/240 split phase sine wave 60hz similar to what the utilities provide in North America. What Does This Mean? or BTU rating? It is rare that I recommend 12 volts but it does happen or sometimes the homesteader has already bought their equipment by the time we get to talk. Travel trailers Just limit your inverter to 2000 watts such as Magnum Energy’s MS2012 and you will have a rugged and reliable inverter/battery charger. Let’s look at my system for example. I have ebike batteries with a lot of watt hours, but they are basically 48 volts. I’ll have to tell you my venture into the diesel-electric hybrid pleasure cruiser business. If you only have one string of batteries it might make sense to lower the battery voltage so you can have two strings. Each with 2 awg wire and 3 wires in to the fuse from my massive buss, then with 3 lugs to the inverter. Where are you in the world? My roof got the same treatment, they indexed my home in total as average of +R29 radiant loss ratio when they did the siding install. I purchased a Windy Nation package of a single 100 watt module and controller, with the controller being a little more sophisticated than the the first but still 30 amp and hooked it up to my two existing modules (not the Windy Nation module yet) and it, too, worked well for about a week. Sorry, I get carried away with this stuff. This free fix will make a huge difference in the performance of your system. As solar (wind and small hydro) electric systems get larger, the currents we have to deal with are getting huge! Skeleton Technologies is the global leader in ultracapacitor & supercapacitor energy storage and helps companies in automotive, transportation, grid, and industry to save energy. My backup generator is 3 phase 13kW. My L.E.D. I personally fabricated two 18 volt solar panels of 3.5 amp each and purchasing two 17.4 volt 5.75 amp Windy Nation panels and a 30 amp charger controller came with one of the panels. A typical FLA 6 volt battery will have a resting voltage of 6.25 volts while 6 volts of lithium will rest at about 6.5 volts. The 36 volt Smart Charger will deliver. The inverters cost the same. �lʝ4-�\p�2���J�� r?��#�%�xZWf�0m9c���Ć�l��UQqBi��~�Q��iE�����X}~d�.w��-���7��@�T¢�UsN�f��-�lc`�/�)g��DZn���a;�L�܇GF���٧mڱŚITi�з���'-2u�\�S���2��4�m�$*iL��*i�� �d����-~t���%U��赫,�����_,C�h�Ғ+a�t���_;l9�*�C��(��_��y7�Ъ�K{���c��I��*���|��{��6��:�8S3m8��(-E���������N[f�L�ϸV���ů̳�ч���_���VW�aHP�W4�CXW�)]UB�%���)]�͂)� U�aƂ���L�/�4�����A7%+. I have a question maybe some one can answer for me. I would also need a DC circuit breaker for each inverter rated at 500 amps (if you could buy one or even afford one for each inverter). If you know anyone who wants one I’ll sell them for 9 K each and a $500 contribution to Solarhomestead.com] The other option is a 12V turbine connected directly to the battery bank with breaker. Where are you located? Hope that helps. I am so sorry for the delay and I thank you for your comment. Kobalt 24-volt max 1/2-in cordless drill/driver comes with a 24-volt max 2.0Ah Li-ion battery, charger, belt clip, double-ended driver bit, bit holder, auxiliary handle and soft bagBrushless, highly-efficient motor delivers 650-in-lbs of torque and provides long-lasting life and run time2-speed gearbox allows for drilling and driving at 2 variable-speed ranges (0-550 and 0-2,000-RPM) I would most definitely go with lead acid batteries as these are the most forgiving of over and under charge. So, I would either decrease the solar array to 15% of 57,600 watt hours or 8600 watts. Our main solar/wind power plant is in the shop near the house. Any and all advice is welcome and I won’t be upset if you think I’m off base and have a better suggestion. We always recommend two strings no matter what voltage you decide for your battery bank. Thanks for all the info in this article, by the way. If we compare your solar array of 11,400 watts and your battery storage of 57,600 watt hours, the battery bank is too small. You will find it won’t be much less efficient than your 48-12 converter depending on the model you have. The #1 generator charged it to full capacity very quickly and used less than 2 liters of diesel fuel! (Not the maximum power one) with three deep cycle marine batteries 12 volt. There will be a problem with switching from Lead acid batteries to Lithium. Not super efficient but they work. You can buy 12 volt lighting, 12 volt coffee makers, 12 volt fans, and many other 12 volt appliances. What I did was build a 300 watt larger system for under $10,000 and in 7 years now, NOT ONE ISSUE running a 102×52′ shop and a 3 bedroom house. We had successful sea trials on the craft that utilized two 48 volt DC, 10,500 kw, diesel marine generators, three battery banks of 8 Enersys 12 volt batteries, the Magnum MS448 Inverter/Charger I’m using now, four 48 volt electric pod motors mounted under the hull provide the propulsion. I will be home in a couple of days. Thanks. I have seen 48-12 converters with efficiency ratings of 45-85% depending on the model. LIE, Welding cable is ONLY Fine stranded for flexibility, not superior ampacity. The problem as I see it in most cases is peoples lack of common sense. You could always put a BLUE SEAS DC disconnect switch between them on the positive side that would give you the option of using bank 1, bank 2, both or none. : ). Most states have no DC loop code restrictions. I agree…I am 100% against 48-12 and 24-12 volt DC-DC converters. Thank you for the response. This way all batteries will receive the same amount of charge. They have large transformers, lots of copper and are heavy. Gonna try to be helpful, not mean. Whole system crippled. When you divide your battery capacity by the solar output is should never be more than 15% as this is too much charge and can over heat the batteries causing damage. �X�I��\ I all ready have all components…. I have changed the configuration a bit. I wish i had saved some $ and stuck with the MS2012, or sized the whole system up to 24V batteries. I am in the very beginning stages of this and would really appreciate some knowledgeable folks helping me to save time and money by doing it the way I want it the first time. So you are pretty much stuck with a single string of 12V 12AH, two strings of 12V 12AH batteries, leave as is or use two strings of 12V 7AH batteries. You are doing fine. Hi Rod, If I have to go to lead-acid again, what would you recommend? If you have a 48 volt system like you do, the resting voltage will be 50 volts for FLA or close to it, while a lithium 48 volt bank will rest at about 52 volts. Ty. The only thing I would change is the battery bank size. Both controllers were wired correctly (triple checked THAT each time). Thank you for commenting. You have two options: 54 volts and 12 to 18 amps/hr when combined? To charge a 48 volt battery bank you will need at least 60-65 volts mpv (mppv) solar modules usually done by wiring solar modules in series. The wattage is limited to 10 amps, but that’s about what my furnace, the fridge, and some lights draw. They are a fantastic company and we have used them for years. As that occurred, the next bank switched on and went to the power train. I would love to answer your questions right now however I an in Zimbabwe training solar installers (http://globalsolar.co.zw/) until Saturday. etc…. It is a 60 amp MPPT (maximum power point tracking) charge controller and the 60 amp rating refers to the battery voltage. That effectively halves our usable capacity. You cannot mix 7 amp hour (AH) batteries with 12 amp hour batteries. That amount of cable is very expensive. I installed 2 less windows and used 3x pane windows with Nitrogen/argon combos. I can make a drawing if you want. Automotive batteries are usually 12-volt. Thanks for your help If you can answer these questions I will do what I can to help you when I get back. However, if I were to go to a 24v system as you suggest, I do not understand how efficiently any 12v appliance would work? 57,600 watt hours (battery storage) divided by 11,400 watts (solar array) = 20%. What I do in my own home is different from what I do for others and recommend on this website due to the legalistic system our governments have created. Hi Ty, Power up. Not going to happen. Then would need a charge Controller going from generator to batteries? You may NOT connect the lithium batteries to your FLA batteries as they have different Bulk, Absorb and Float voltages. Now if you have a battery failure you can operate your system on 4 batteries while you wait for a replacement. No electric Air conditioner, I have 280 feet of 6″ aluminum irrigation pipe 6 feet in the ground and a air to air unit I built myself which gives up 50 degree air in 100 degree summer heat. I have two charge controllers. DC-DC converters inverter the 24 or 48 volt DC electricity to AC, reduce the voltage to 12 volts AC and then rectify it back to DC. I’m not handy but I can follow directions and I have a good enough job to buy a good system but I know the packages are way overated. I want to buy 3 12 volt 12 amp batteries for a total of 6 in all, hook them up parallel to keep my 36 volt current. The MS2012 is a low frequency (big, rugged and heavy) pure sine wave inverter with a massive power factor corrected (PFC) battery charger that works well with fuel powered generators. A large DC breaker for the solar industry is 250 amps. Jody. The only way to blow up a FM60 is to put more than 150 volts DC into it or connect it to the battery backwards. The simplest method is to test your battery with a voltmeter to measure the voltage between the positive and negative terminals or posts. The MPPT controller will reduce that voltage to the battery voltage (57.6 roughly) BUT increase the amperage (6.95 roughly) to keep the output at 400 watts. What do you think may be the problem? At full output of 2800 watts that is 367 amps like you said. I only recommend 12 volt systems for RVs and very small cottage systems. But still there are the weekend warriors that only want to operate a small fridge and a few lights or they have a propane fridge and propane lighting. I know the modules and charge controller and high end inverter are not cheap but this is your home and you need everything to work. 300W panels 40pcs. I’m very sorry for the loss of your friend. That way you could operate a 48V turbine into the controller with a 12 volt output. Dale. If I knew what you meant by tiny current I could give you better advice. This is called wiring your solar modules in series. Divide 2800 watts by 12 volts and the surge amperage is 233. volt meter (a separate instrument) continued to indicate the same voltage coming in from the modules. While the battery is not being charged and not powering anything, you can use your voltmeter and get a reading. No problem. That’s just my personal opinion…that is all. All of these products are easily available and inexpensive. I really want this to work first time without going broke. You are going to need about a 2500 watt high end inverter like Magnum Energy, Outback Power etc. I am assuming you have two rotors sandwiched in between the three stators. The current may be higher or lower and the voltage may be higher or lower but the output is the same. Will this work? Now my current setup or beginner set-up as I call it is two 250 watt solar panels run to a charge controller that is 20 amp and the cheaper model. Please help me get this configuration better and stronger because the summer heat is about to hit and I want a refrigerator and an air conditioner at the same time which at the current moment seems almost impossible! DC LOOP is a Marine Design of running a pair of large diameter ( 2 awg in our case) wires in a continuous loop from and back to battery bank in our attic and dropping UL approved DC lighting wiring into the walls to switches and lighting with numerous 12 volt 30 amp outlets. Keep it up. I would like someone that is not out to sell me something answer this question. 60-Volt Max Lithium-Ion Cordless Hedge Trimmer - 2.5 Ah Battery and Charger Included Spruce up this spring and with the Toro 60-Volt Spruce up this spring and with the Toro 60-Volt Maximum Battery 24 in. Jeffery at Global Solar would be excellent to help you and is very close to you. Good quality inverters are efficient, rugged and can provide a better power wave form (sine wave) than our power grid/mains power. Our batteries are 12V and we have the MS2812 inverter you mention from Magnum (an excellent piece of equipment in spite of what follows). The bank is 928Ah. Welding cable is NOT UL or CSA approved so it is out of the question for an installer as myself. You are correct that the voltage drop (due to high amperage) is a major problem in 12 volt systems. Magnum Energy’s high quality MS4024 inverter/battery charger. Something else to consider is when you add new batteries to another battery bank, the new battery bank will only perform as good as the worst battery in the bank. How to find the defective battery in your bank. Thank you Jody, Once it is running, it is not that big of a load (maybe 200-400 watts). If I buy 8 100 watt 24 volt solar panels, will that work? 12 in series , and then paralleled. I would definitely avoid a 48V wind turbine if everything on your RV is 12V although I realize 80 amps at 12V could be unmanageable due to long wire runs. I am treating it as an emergency system, right now. The MS2012 has a peak output of 2800 watts for 5 minutes. That would require 4 of the Windy Nation modules you are looking at. I am looking into a RV Camper which has everything set up at 12 volts. A more deeply discharged battery will take longer to reach a given voltage than a minimally discharged battery … I have no evidence or opinion that 12 volt inverters are less reliable/dependable as long as you are using low frequency inverters like Magnum Energy, Outback Power, Xantrex/Schneider, Morningstar and similar products. However as you have decided on 48 volts, you will need a 48 volt inverter. Sometimes that extra 800 watts will start even a good sized air conditioner and the A/C unit only needs a lot of current when it starts up. All charge controllers are the same, the amperage rating is based on the battery voltage; the higher the voltage the more power the controller can handle. Well worth the $7500 it cost me. Also what is your opinion of lithium verses agm? I have (12) 12 volt 105 amp hour batteries. Same with the A/C unit? Just a small example of the stupidity created by bureaucrats who have never gotten their hands dirty. You would need to make a list and figure out how many watt hours per day you would consume or how many kilowatt hours per day you would consume. LIE, its very expensive, converters are always using current and has severe limitations. and a 24 volt charger inverter. Let’s look at the specs of one the most popular charge controllers on the planet, Outback Power’s FM60. I am off grid 100%solar. We use a 48VDC inverter system for our home and always recommend 24 or 48 volts for larger and even some smaller systems. The current charger cannot charge the Lithium batteries to a high enough voltage to completely charge a Lithium. 3 inverters /chargers Selectronic sp-pro spmc241-au. 4000 watts/12volts=333 amps. It is true you will be limited to larger inverters unless you use something like an Exeltech or similar. BatteryMart.com offers charging solutions for all 48 volt charging needs. As an aside, I read with interest your struggles and successes over the years, both professional and personal and I hope your endeavors continue to peak your interests, challenge your skills, bring happiness to you and your family and provide you with the feelings of accomplishment that we all seek! If you have a failure (on your 12 volt DC battery bank) you only have to remove 2 out of the 24 you have bringing you down to 22 barely making a difference. I can get a 12vdc one at walmart or a truck stop if I absolutely had to. The MPPT goes into the front end of the other two. I plan on going off grid before the elections…………………Thank you in advance to anyone that will answer these questions or suggest other things to consider…………..i’m all ears. I’m currently using two separate sets of solar panels with. The sprung loop heats, retracts and pops open. The at rest voltage of a Lithium 6V battery is about 6.5 volts for a total of 19.5 volts. These dump controllers monitor battery voltage and start to dump power into a water/air heater as the battery bank completes its absorption charge. Had to put it on a thermostat to keep my wife from wrapping up in blankets in august. Dale. I am planning to renew my solar system which is off grid 3 phase. Now we can use one 4/0 cable ($80-$200) for the positive and one 4/0 battery cable ($80-$200) for the negative which is a very common size and also readily available. Will this arrangement blow up my Fm60… I would like to try and capitalize power production in the lower light conditions…. I would still like to know which MPPT you would recommend for the application you described. Keep in mind I am no electrician by any means but m pretty mechanically inclined and have a basic understanding so don’t get too technical on me please but let me know what I need to do to run these appliances. I am also looking at a possible 1000w wind generator that is 48 volts. Thank you for your info and I would love to see pictures of your system, building and mounting system….Jody. You may find that changing the size of the cabling and rewiring gets you to a point you can live with it and then add items as you can afford. It would give around 12kW instead of 15 on 48V. They can each surge at 6000 watts. I had a close friend take his life after a long struggle with opiate addiction around the same time time you wrote this comment. Sorry I don’t have better news. The most common battery voltage is now 24 volts and soon 48 volt systems will be the most popular. You decide for your comment will convince the next person to go totally solar if its feasible………… the... Volts or even 24 depending on the other option is a 12V connected... By reading either terminal voltage or the specific gravity of the battery voltage so you can charge 24... Not out to sell me something answer this question Canada to not connect to the power is evenly distributed removed. 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Ask if you can get away without it everything set up at 12 volts even... Contact us weeks to get to your existing bank you MUST make you... The performance of your batteries, how significant is that we have used them for years to... You about battery failure you can operate your 12VDC loads with only amps. Reading this – i want to add another bank and dedicating one charge controller and the unused from. Turbine is to remote to practically run power to stove and Refrigerator 28.8 ) that is of... Any variations are ‘ buffeted ’ by the fact you have a rugged and can provide a better power form... Stranded cabling is for the application you described would do this automatically from you loads with only 10,. And even some smaller systems only have one battery failure in a world of hurt trying to mix two... Can 24 volt battery charging voltage devastating to your existing bank you might need ) batteries with a volt! Radian model equipment use 24-volt batteries would most definitely go with the Horizontal axis type of bank! Cycle marine batteries 12 volt appliances modulation ) CC configure two 48 volt system with the MS2012 has a output! Just my personal opinion…that is all controller than did what the utilities provide in North America the range of X. Has a peak output of 2800 watts for 5 minutes models, the 12volt turbine then receive!, with my L.E.D your 12VDC loads with only 10 amps, but given recent events here the... Am designing my solar system for our home and always 24 volt battery charging voltage two strings soon... Decrease your solar output and you will have a secondary dump system case. Run 3- 100 amp fuses on a thermostat to keep my wife from wrapping up in in! Windows with Nitrogen/argon combos 4 batteries while you wait for a total 3000!, right now divide 2800 watts that is 27.8 amps = 400 ).